Baiyon has been an artistic influence in Kyoto for over the past twenty years. Working in different mediums across his storied career, Baiyon has crafted some incredible visual and aural art, including a massive contribution to the indie darling Pixeljunk Eden. But, like all great creators, Baiyon is not one to simply sit back and let his work speak for itself in perpetuity. Rather, he continues to innovate and reassess both the world around him and his own unique perspective on our shared existence. This creative way of thinking and vantage has led to the creation of his newest art installment, which also happens to be a game: Dream of Another.

Dreams of Another is a stunningly surreal title in which the protagonist uses a very detailed gun to create, rather than destroy. Each shot brings together the purposely diffused landscape where he walks, slowly using bullets and explosions to bring things together rather than take them apart. Amidst this reverse destruction, the protagonist will engage with entities, both human and anthropomorphic, to ask and answer questions that matter to the player, not to the plotline. A wild dose of introspective philosophy injected with a gameplay that turns expectations on their head, it’s no wonder that Dreams of Another was the winner of the Visual Excellence Award.

Ahead of the game’s release, I was fortunate enough to sit down with Baiyon during BitSummit to pick his brain on a wide range of subjects, from the game itself and its inception to Baiyon’s own view of the world at large. It was a fascinating, multifaceted interview that, at times, was given a role reversal, as Baiyon seemed genuinely interested to know my own thoughts and opinions about various subjects. As we delve into this rabbit hole of a conversation, I’d like to extend my thanks to Emily Askew of Q-Games for helping make this meeting happen. I do hope that, after this, you’re as intrigued by Dreams of Another as I am, and want to know more about the thoughts of the man they call Baiyon.

Oliver: Just to begin with, how are you enjoying this year’s BitSummit?

Baiyon: Ah, good question. Each year, this is getting bigger and bigger, more and more people are enjoying it, and I see a lot of smiles, so that’s really great. Also, for me personally, I’m a local here [in Kyoto], so seeing some of the local businesses, like the burger shops, making a lot of money from visitors makes me even happier. There are a lot of visitors coming from outside who aren’t a normal part of our community, but they help contribute to the overall environment. You know, from the very first time we had BitSummit to now, it’s so great to see our event evolve into what it is now.

Oliver: This year, you’re showcasing Dreams of Another, which I had a chance to play a bit of earlier today. It gives players a lot to think about just from mechanics and execution. We’d like to know: what gave you the idea for Dreams of Another?

Baiyon: This is a very hard question. Initially, I looked at something like the gun in gaming: a lot of players nowadays are used to using guns in games. So I thought about using the gun to bring things together instead of scattering them. In this way, I thought players could feel like they are creating a world with a gun instead of taking it apart. That’s the first part. But also, there’s this idea of “no creation without destruction,” which is a big part of Dreams of Another. I’m now forty five years old, and I’ve been thinking about those ideas: creating and destroying, black and white, and I feel like they may be the same thing. Even if two things are the opposite, it’s just a matter of perspective or how you view them that makes them that way. 

Like…say you get back to your home after a really cold day, and you want to take a bath, you sink into the water, and what would you say? You’d say “attakai” (lit. “it’s warm”). I’ve asked everyone, and they all answer the same, atakai. But, for me, when I get into that same bath, I think “ah, it was so cold.” And I thought that was normal until I asked others, and they all said they felt the bath was warm. Yet, even as they say the bath is warm or hot, or I say it’s cold, it’s the same thing. It’s just how we interpret it. Art is the same way; it’s about how you see it. When I’m creating, I try to think about those feelings and how to get people to take away, not just from the black and the white, but from the gray zones as well.

Another anecdote that applies to the “no creation without destruction” idea goes back to when I was in middle school. I was teamed up with another classmate to create something for the school culture festival. We used cardboard to make a strange statue, and we were happy with it. But the statue was only there for one day, just for the festival. When the end of the day came, instead of simply taking the statue down, I just started to destroy it. We had to throw it away anyway: why not have some fun and tear it apart? But, as I felt this excited, almost fun energy to destroy this thing I had just created, my classmate suddenly started hitting me, yelling, “What the fuck are you doing?” This disruption got a teacher into the room, who slapped me and said, “Are you making something just to destroy it?”

And I couldn’t answer. Yes? No? I had to really think about it: I knew my intentions, but trying to express them was something that took more time. And that’s really stuck in my mind since then, and it’s what I try to express in my game. When I started to bring this together for the gamers, I knew I wanted to have the structure of shooting a gun. You might ask, “Why use a gun? Why have such a realistic gun in a very dreamy world?” The answer is, it’s a gun, but it’s not real: it’s symbolism within the dream that the player character is having. It’s almost like a representative of a game within the dream.

When you pick up a gun in most video games, you have an idea of what you’re expecting, and the handling and the natural button control is what players will understand. So I wanted to keep the gameplay structure, but then turn the result of the action – to bring things together instead of breaking them apart – is what I hope players will be surprised by and give them pause.

Oliver: It does work exceedingly well. The gameplay feels intuitive if you’ve played any first or third-person shooter, so you know the general idea going forward. But then to have the game give you a human element of what you encounter gives you pause. What are some questions you’d like players to ask themselves as they play Dreams of Another?

Baiyon: I made all the dialogue of the game with very specific intentions of what would be asked. “Who are you? How do you identify yourself? What is your role in the world?” I hope that people are able to encounter these questions and just stop, think, and really consider how to answer. So, in philosophy, take the concept of imagining an apple. You can picture its shape, its color, what an apple would look like. But now we have to think about all the apples that exist in the world. Do they match the apple that’s in your mind? Or is the apple that you imagine the only “real” apple?

Or, say, you go to a supermarket. You see a box of apples, and the sign says “Apples: 298円.” And the box has like a hundred apples. But is every apple in the box the same price? I don’t think so. I find it interesting to appreciate the differences among apples sold in the same box at the same price. However, since people don’t have much time, they tend to compress information and group all the apples under the same price label to eliminate the hesitation in choosing, treating every apple as having the same value without questioning it. If people had the mental space and time, they would take their time to carefully select and enjoy the differences among these apples. But society doesn’t really allow that kind of leisurely pace.

What’s the excuse? “I’m busy?”  We spend so much time working to make money to just buy apples that we don’t even really consider. Society is so weird. I want to have a whole week to think about the kind of apples I want to have. But society won’t allow me, or you, to do this. So my game can’t change society, I’m not trying to do that. But, with Dreams of Another, I’m making almost a secret lair for the people. You can stop thinking about the outside world and just consider the time you’re spending in the game. It gives you a chance to think about anything, any deep question, in a place that is separate from way too many games [note: he really liked the name of our site].

Oliver: So, in essence, Dreams of Another is a game that subverts conventions twofold. First, you’re creating with a gun instead of destroying. Then, you’re playing this game not to escape the world, but to focus in on yourself and your own thoughts.

Baiyon: I’m more interested in what’s happening here [indicates towards head] than what’s happening here [motions to hands]. Whatever is happening in your mind while you play the game is what you can then take back to your normal life. That’s what I really wanted players to get from my game.

Oliver: As much as there is a game character who is on the screen, it’s more about the person who’s playing the game.

Baiyon: Exactly! I really wanted to make Dreams of Another as a third-person perspective game. When you’re in the third perspective, there’s essentially two perspectives. As you control the protagonist, you can also see yourself reflected on the screen. It’s something that you can only do in a game. When you’re out in your life, can you watch yourself walking around? Never. We walk around in life, controlling ourselves, but we never see ourselves. That’s the question that I wanted Dreams of Another to bring about. “Who are you? Where are you?” These questions are so fun for me to think about.

The third-person perspective is what I really enjoy about video games. Like, I really enjoy Mother and those kind of JRPGs. But, when I play the games, I never want to be the characters. I just want to be with them, witnessing what’s happening. Video games let you express yourself in a way that you can’t really get in other art.

Oliver: As an artist, you’ve dabbled in many mediums, from visual to music creation, and your huge involvement in Pixeljunk Eden. Do you consider video games to be your best medium for having an audience experience and understanding a message?

Baiyon: Most of the time when I work in art, I put in a lot of inspiration, and end up making references or homages in what I create. Eden, with Eden I had a lot of inspiration that then made its way into the graphic designs, the soundtrack of house music, and so forth. With Dreams of Another, the inspiration is literally the idea of video games. It’s one step forward for me, and maybe I’m moving at a slow pace, but this is also a very big step for me. Finally, I’m trying to make a game with my love and appreciation towards games as the center. I hope that other people can get that message.

Oliver: On a technical note, where will Dreams of Another be released?

Baiyon: It’ll be on PC, PlayStation 5, as well as a PSVR2 version.

Oliver: Oh! You’ve made a strong point about the 3rd person perspective. Do you feel the game comes across well on PSVR2?

Baiyon: The PSVR2 version will allow you to either be in 3rd person or first person. Both are great, and the third-person does let you be with them as you move around. The first person gets you even closer to the environment so you can really see the colors and the shapes. While I like the 3rd person perspective, I like the feeling of using the VR controls as you move through the game.

Baiyon: By the way, you’ve gotten a chance to play. Have you discovered any interesting dialogue that you liked?

Oliver: To be honest, the first person you encounter talks a lot about a manhole and what kind of monster might be underneath. His language is so focused on demonic, evil ideas that might be down there, and what you find is…something else.

Baiyon: Yeah, I tried to keep in some structures and cliches in order to keep players on their toes. Getting people to think “red” when it’s “blue” is really interesting. There’s a lot that players might encounter within the game that they’ll be expecting one thing, but then run into another.

Another anecdote: when I used to play more of the FPS games, like Battlefield, I would change the soundtrack to sonatas and classical music. When you switch out the music, it suddenly created a lot of questions and ideas for how I was playing. As I was shooting someone, I would think, “Do they have a family?” When I blow up a flat, I wonder if someone was inside just having dinner or some other everyday activity. It made it more interesting to add a story to each character that’s there. I became more curious, which made it so I wasn’t just shooting and thinking, “this is the enemy.” I began to see their life as I’m trying to shoot my way across the game, and I thought “they were living.” You can see the life there, and it’s not what everyone would see.

Also, as the composer for the game, I then had control about how to add that level of emotion to what was happening on the screen. Even moments of death within the game, you can still help to shape ideas or feelings of happiness because you are, you were in this world. That’s something that I really hoped to create for the player. I hope it creates a moment for them where, in their day, maybe just before they go to sleep, they can just think about it, and themselves, and what they got from the game, and maybe it affects their world just a bit.

Oliver: Getting to the end of our time, I want to ask: do you have any important words for players who are coming into your world for the first time?

Baiyon: Yeah, I really wanted it to have something more substantial than just “hello, it’s a sunny day,” that kind of dialogue. I wanted to have it open up the questions, like “how do you identify yourself,” or “do you know who you are?” I wanted to have it so that people don’t try to eat the whole thing in a single setting. You should slow down, take your time, really focus on what you’ve been given and how you interpret that. There are some serious dialogues, but there are also plenty of stupid lines.

Like, you know the TV show Knight Scoop? I’m a big fan of that show. It’s this detective agency where viewers ask questions, and then this group goes out to find the answers. It’s got plenty of silly and stupid moments, but it also has some seriousness and real emotion. Laugh and cry at the same time. The wild contrast between “I want to make this room smell bad” and “my mother is dying, please help me fulfill her last wish.” This kind of show really captures the essence of Kansai people. They take in everything; they cry, they laugh, and they do it without the need for separation. As a Kansai person, this is important to me, and I wanted to share that kind of style with the world at large.

Baiyon: “Dreams of Another” will be released on October 10th for PS5, PS VR2, and Steam. On the same day, “PixelJunk Eden 2,” a title I previously directed, will also be released for PS4, PS5, and Steam. A special bundle that includes both titles will be available as well. Pre-orders for all of them have already begun. As a pre-order bonus, you’ll receive two exclusive color pajamas. Those who pre-order the bundle will get early access starting on October 7th. If you’re interested, please be sure to check them out.